News flash: Google thinks the Japanese role-playing game is dead. I know this because I've just been researching a feature about why the Japanese role-playing game isn't dead, and when you type the search string "JRPGs a" into Google, "JRPGs are dead" is among the options you're thrown. Google's opinions aren't its own, of course. They're the opinions of untold millions of users across the globe - or rather, opinions Google believes to be theirs based on what those users search for and which pages they visit.
As an index of popular apathy, they don't come much bigger or scarier, and worshippers of Cloud Strife's eye-stabbing fringe already have reason to worry. Following a general sales slump over the past decade, home format JRPG releases in the west have dwindled (retro remakes are enjoying something of a Renaissance on mobile and handheld). Gaming's audience has expanded dramatically, but shooters, action games and western role-players like Mass Effect have denied the JRPG new converts.
High time for a bit of hope? Definitely. The Japanese role-playing game might be on the back-burner, but there's no reason it can't be as relevant and impressive today as it was 10 years ago. Here are some arguments to that effect.
1. They're the original and best blockbusters
Long before Mass Effect tried its hand at planet probing to cleanse palettes of gunfights and branching chats, and long before Gears rolled out its first on-rails turret sequence, Japanese role-playing games were experimenting with the idea of a videogame "blockbuster": a one-size-entertains-all assemblage of game types built around evolving combat or action systems, rooted in worlds of massive scope and narrative density.
The PS1-era Final Fantasies in particular are tours de force of wit and invention. Final Fantasy VII gave us Chocobo breeding and snow-boarding, Final Fantasy VIII a fully-fledged card game I'd have been perfectly happy to buy separately. Final Fantasy IX experimented with QTE-driven theatre in its opening hour, and Final Fantasy X plays host to a bizarre underwater mash-up of Speedball and Final Fantasy Tactics.
2. Turn-based battle is intensely civilized...
When it's designed merely to facilitate a character levelling system, turn-based battling can be atrocious - repetitive, implausible and the cause of maddening additional load breaks. But when it's done right, nothing touches it. Nothing. As I argued in a blog post last year, the best examples combine leisurely tactical tinkering with a degree of showmanship real-time combat can't hope to rival.
101 comments so far...
SidTheSloth on 13 Feb '12 said:
I'm glad you guys at OXM are still championing the J-rpg as i'm starting to feel increasingly isolated in my support of them...
I think accessibility has a lot to answer for with them, with battle systems redesigned from scratch for almost every iteration with anything good being neglected. For me and many others, materia was the best skill/magic type from any of the final fantasy's yet square seem to stubbornly shy away from even remotely revisiting the idea. Consider the way GF's worked in FF8 (ignoring the somewhat badly conceived junction system), they levelled up, they had their own skills, but even better they 'protected' the character whilst summoned until unleashing their attack - summon times reduced as the character bonded etc - awesome, never to be seen again in that vein, often fussy and overcomplicated systems introduced, or not even included as per the sequel!
Grinding and pacing can be another issue, not to mention dungeons and random battles - anyone who has completed Lost Odyssey will know all about this as it has what must be the most horrific dungeon of any game i've played (my memory is telling me it was optional too thinking back?!) with no more than 5 seconds between attacks from enemies that took an age to kill - this is what turns a lot of people off and surely could be gotten around with cleverer design.
Proper turn based battling can be awesome, playing out a bit like a chess match with added fireballs... repeatedly hitting an enemy for 25 hit points just to fill a meter that lets me hurt it a whole lot more makes snakes and ladders seem exciting!
Three phone calls during writing this completely spoiled my train of thought so sorry it seems a lit disjointed but meant to ask how many others share my disappointment that 'The Last Story' is Wii only
Baryonyx on 13 Feb '12 said:
Lets hope that, amoung other things, Final Fantasty will be great again one day, as it's in a dismal state at the moment.
senote on 13 Feb '12 said:
The Grind is perhaps the biggest turn-off for mass market appeal, I can honestly say I haven't played a 360 JRPG that didn't feel like it would require days of repetive grinding to finish, people who actually like the grinding are probably outnumbered at least 100:1, and it doesn't work in any other RPG's either, remember the planet surveying from ME2 ZZZZZ.
I've got the 1000G on Skyrim, I'm sure I put in many, many, many hours to get it, to get through the winter games drought I brought FFXIII I'm a good 50 or 60 hours in and almost at the end, but I've had to spend the last 10-15 hours grinding to level up my characters to a point where I can finish the game. And then to get the 1000G I have to spend more hours grinding to get all kinds of ingredients to level up weapons. Some people like this, they are a minority.
I admit I haven't done every single side quest in Skyrim, nor do I have all the weird jars or maxed out every skill, but the game is done, if I want to do those, that is the grind, and this is what JRPG's need to do, create a story and a game where the grind becomes entirely optional but still has reason to do it for those who want to.
Oh and REMAKE FFVII I want to see Bahamut in current gen hd glory.
Maverick_McCool on 14 Feb '12 said:
@senote - I have to laugh at your comment , you bitch about grinding for a good 2 paragraphs , and then right at then end you say "bring back FFVII" one of the most relentless grindfests ever put on a disc!
I agree though that the grind can be really off putting to a gamer that isn't used to it , but I think one of the biggest reasons that JRPG's are on the slide ( and they are , make no mistake ) is a problem that they share with all ( well , some ) RPG's which is the stripping back of content and replacing it with flashy meaningless fluff.
If you enjoy a certain type of game , the last thing you want is those elements you like being constantly butchered to attract a new crowd , of course innovation is important , but it seems some developers have a better grasp on how this should work than others.
My disdain for EA aside , Mass Effect is a great example of how to do it right(ish) despite having a far inferior plot , bargain bucket character customisation , and a list of other EA inspired irks ( goldfish? FFS ), it's game engine is far superior and it kept just enough of the original spark to keep the original fans hooked and attracted a lot of new fans as a result.
If you compare the FF series , they go from FFXII ( or IV , V , VI , VII , VIII , XI or X or Breath of fire , or Lost Odyssey or...well you get the idea. ), a huge sprawling open world with a wealth of side quests and things to do , to FFXIII a 20hr long big corridor with a cool battle system but no shops , towns , mini games or side quests or anything to divert you from the grind.
In fact the only constant they seem to keep is the one reason I don't bother with them anymore. So in closing I'll give you 7 good reasons why the JRPG is becoming (sadly) a dead genre.
1: Vanille
2: Lymle
3: Moogle (Kup-f**king-o)
4: Cooke and Mack
5: Marumaro
6: Vanille ( yes twice , she deserves it.)
7: Lymle ( believe it or not , this little freak deserves it even more.)
I rest my case.
SidTheSloth on 14 Feb '12 said:
Ha, a good list, the only one i don't know is marumaro, quick google tells me Blue Dragon - which i have but haven't played yet (or sure i ever will with the stupid number of other things to play!) but im looking forward to it even more now i know there's a 'potential vanille' in it!
Ha, Lymle - was she that bad 'kay? YES! Please get eaten by your dog or something you little weirdo! And (Star Ocean 4 spoilers if you haven't played) Faize - WTF? She looks and sounds like a 3 year old?!?!?! If it weren't for MEracle thinking she were a chicken, i'd be adding sarah to your list as her and vanille are just too similar!
Cooke & Mack i agree with, but you'll need to add Rico & Rucha if you play infinite undiscovery as they are the identi-copy irritating kid characters! This is one of my other big bug-bears in J-rpgs - diverse characters are good, but i'm meant to be saving the world not babysitting for a mother/father who's clearly cleverer than i am to have gotten rid of such irritating brats (kind of unfair on mack/cooke considering the LO storyline i suppose!)
There's a character from Enchanted Arms i want to add but i've only played it an hour so can't remember his name - very worrying though he's annoyed me that much already though!!
Lastly, and this is the reason i started writing this, you missed Hope. Again (not angry, just disappointed). I've no love for Vanille, but her and Hope should get a room just so i can set fire to it
On a more serious note, i think you've kinda hit the nail on the head... w-rpgs are a lot more accessible to what seems to be a generally more impatient gamer nowadays. How many times on disc 1 of lost odyssey did you think about turning off? That took an age to get going for me as a fan so can only imagine how most wouldn't like it. Read a lot of comments from the FF guys saying they want to become more western which i don't necessarily think is the solution. Sure, learn some lessons but don't lose the USP that made J-rpgs in the first place. I love Mass Effect/Dragon Age but i'll always still have time for my 'over the top emotional J-rpg rollercoasters' - maybe kingdom hearts is the closest thing to bridging the gap so far (although with each iteration the story gets more ridiculous - and changing formats for each game is a good way to p*ss off your fan base imo!)
Wow, sorry, that was only meant to be a one-liner!
CunningSmile on 14 Feb '12 said:
I agree with the grind putting off a lot of people but I don't think that is likely to change too much due to culture. Having met a lot of Japanese people through martial arts, as a culture they don't seem to feel they are having a good time and achieving anything without grind. The members off my Kendo club are quite happy with a two hour training session followed by a trip to the pub. A recent Japanese visitor had barely finished his stretching excercises after two hours and suggested a 5 mile run (in full, very heavy armour) after class.
Seriously weird, but it's almost like a national masochism and for that reason I don't think it will be completely removed from JRPGs any time soon.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
1) If you search google you will find alot more jrpgs are awesome, jrpg reviews than articles about why they are ;dead: like most systems
2) There have been as many japanese rpgs in terms of quantity as any other gen ( maybe more) so we have girth covered
3) Quality is just as high
The article mentions 13-2 alot. But theres been blue dragon, lost oddessy, dragon quest ix, tactics ogre psp, the legend of heroes, zhp, radaint mythology, and any number of awesome titles
4) Simply, people are jealous of them.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
wrpgs arent more accessible. they are more dumbed down. Thats the real word. Los oddessy in terms of gameplay,l story, characters, world ran circles over skyrim. A generic title.
Read most comments from FF guys any they want rpgs to stay as far away from the west as possible.
mass effect isnt an rpg. And dragon age 2 destroyed the series.
Kingdom hearts is just 1 example of a series with strong entries in the last 5 years. 4 titles that have strengethed the story anf the fanbase
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
@Maverick_McCool
"but I think one of the biggest reasons that JRPG's are on the slide"
Is this why theres just as many as last gen? with just a high a quality?
Is this why we are seeing rpgs from past gens localized in this one? The fanbase is so much bugger now.
Mass effect is a great example how to dumb down an rpg, until it isnt an rpg anymore. mass effect is original? Its the same as any bioware game with a space setting that japan has done for 20 years.
Why are you comparing only the ff series? Theres thousands of japanese rpg series. and they dont all have open worlds. It depends on the game
Did etrian odessy have an open world? Did zhp? hell did disgaea? NO it just depends on the game they decided to make
Stop generalizing and think all the games are the same because all you played is FF.
" So in closing I'll give you 7 good reasons why the JRPG is becoming (sadly) a dead genre."
I am not sure if serious because japanese rpgs have been one of the most successful thriving genres of this gen. And they are the reasons companies like square, sega, namco, nintendo, have all hit profit records this gen, while putting out amazing japanese rpgs.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
@"SidTheSloth"
Grinding is something you can find in any game.
Skyrim, is one of the most generic games Ive ever played
Even the KOA dev thinks that all bethesda games are the same. The only problem is skyrim was worse.
japanese rpgs need to do nothing like skyrim. a hack lord of the rings rip off with broken glitchy worlds, shallow combat, and just main stream dumb down ness
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
Its in a great state actually. In fact its in the best state of any gen ever
you have great main games like 13
then you have ff type zero, 13-2, 4 heroes of light, revant wings, crisis core,tactics advance 2,crystal chronicles
the best versions of 1,2,3,4
no other gen has been so amazing
Oh and back on the sales topic. Pokemon black white, last year broke all rpg records in every region in terms of fastest to 5 million, most sold on any single system this gen
CunningSmile on 14 Feb '12 said:
Looks like the last of the JRPG fan boys has arrived
Whilst you are right that the number of JRPGs this gen is just as big as previously the SALES have been steadily declining in both the west and Japan. This would tend to indicate they are struggling. There is also a large number of Japanese developers saying that Japanese games have lost their way. This would indicate they are struggling, for ideas and innovation if nothing else.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
Why would you feel isolated supporting the most popular rpg location descriptor in the world?
Do you think any other rpg on any other single system has sold close to pokemon black white? 15 million on 1 system? lol no
Grinding - in every game, pacing depends on the game, dungeons depend on the game
and random battles arent used alot but I love them. It brings a sense of suprise.
Last story, thank you for mentioning is yet another awesome new rpg that came out in 2011. The year of awesome japanese rpgs
dragon quest VI here for the first time, radiant historia, disgaea 4, pokemon black white, trails in the sky, 7th dragon 2, ff type zero a whole host of new content for all regions
accessiblity is one of the thinks I love.
I love that its not dumbed down like western rpgs. I love that its true hardcore
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
You can be a supporter without being a fanboy.
And since when have sales been the be all and end all?
If that was the case wii fit would be the best and most successful game this gen.
Are you willing to say that?
But if you want to be realistic sales have been pretty steady in each reason
Lets take disgaea 3 and 4 as an example
Theyve sold much more in japan and the west than 1,2 did
tales of xillia has sold the most of any tales ever
falcom has said legend of heroes and ys have made the most money ever
so in your view it would indicate they arent struggling.
Are any game that doesnt sell as much as wii fit or COD struggling? or is it about making profit.
la noire sold 4 million copies but it didnt make a dollar back. Is that struggling?
"There is also a large number of Japanese developers saying that Japanese games have lost their way"
Nothing to do with anything. And plenty of western devs have said the same thing.
BUT there are devs like kojima who dont think highly of the west saying they only like shooters, so make the games you want to .
And then we have the dev of last story saying " japan is king in terms of gameplay, developing an emotional attachment, crafting a world"
This would indicate they are not struggling for ideas, innovation
The dev of KOA " all bethesda games are the same"
dont you think this is a sign of strugglign for ideas and innovation?
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
lol slow down there. Obviously a j-rpg nut. Define RPG for me please because I think it means role-playing game, and I prefer western rpgs because I play a role throughout the game, it's my role and I do what I like. For me, a j-rpg is a defined character and I just go along for the ride, a grindingly clunky ride in my experience - I know which I would call dumbed down, but then I'd be being immature and I don't want to bait you, but can you see the point? You've wrote an entire book just now without giving thought to the other side.
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
Hey cunning - reminds me of a face with some sort of wish....
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
@Bezza89
I am an rpg nut. Theres a difference.
If you prefer western rpgs I wont change your mind. But pretending you dont play a role ( even if its not your) doesnt make it any less than a role playing game. Also choices in japanese games are alot more interesting
Japanese rpgs dont have to be a defined character thats the beauty, sometimes you have defined characters sometimes you make them up.
But at least theres a choice
Choice is never dumbed down.
And alot of games not just rpgs have grinding to hit goals dude
I thought about the other side.
Do you see I only insulted w rpgs when j rpgs are insutled to be tongue and cheek? I actually like both
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
It just seemed like you were attacking everyones opinions and trying to force your own onto them, that's all. I didn't read everything as you nearly wrote a book.
CunningSmile on 14 Feb '12 said:
And I agree with you Bezza. JRPGs aren't role play anymore than CoD is. You have a defined character with a defined arc, you rarely get to make major choices and the biggest difference between each play through is the upgrade path you take. It's an overly complicated load out rather than Role Playing.
I have nothing against that sort of fixed character in a 10-20 hour game, but it find it gets boring and unenjoyable for any longer and certainly if you hope for repeated play throughs.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
There opinions are there own, But if they are mis representing facts then I need to step in
CunningSmile on 14 Feb '12 said:
I'm sorry, which facts are we misrepresenting? People don't like grind, sales for JRPGs have been dropping indicating fewer people buying them, and many Japanese devs are concerned that they have lost their way and run out of ideas. All of these are FACTS. Where's the misrepresentation?
OXM ETboy on 14 Feb '12 said:
Crikey, shit appears to have got real in here.
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
Hold me back!... Hold me back!
Clanger67 on 14 Feb '12 said:
It is a nice healthy forum discussion,lol.Beats fisticuffs out on the street anyway,lol.
STE MO on 14 Feb '12 said:
The decline of JRPGs is down to the rise of western RPGs as such. But if you look at the bigger picture, it's all Japanese games that are suffering from stunted growth, some may disagree, but even the Japanese studios say they are struggling to make and impact in the west. That's why you found a decade a go that the big dev's from Japan started buying western studios. JRPGs are still alive and kicking just not in the usual FInal Fantasy is the biggest thing since sliced bread sort of way.
I just DL'd FF7 on PS3 the other day. Still looks good and plays great, but I can't help wonder when will they do a HD rework of it, like the video they put out several years ago.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
Exactly this is forum discussion. I am not fighting or getting angry or anything
" sales for JRPGs have been dropping"
this is the false statement that isnt based in truth or fact
people can hate grinding
"many Japanese devs are concerned that they have lost their way and run out of ideas"
This is also false and quite silly. Western devs say the same exact things
And in fact bethesda got called out and rightly so for all there games are exactly the same. Isnt it worse when a collegue calls you out and tells you you ran out of ideas?
Like I proved you didnt give any fact.
And I proved by listing many games with increased sales that what your saying just isnt true
Heres another
xseed's president " sales for trails in the sky have exceeded expectations" Hell of a 6 year old pc port of a game can exceed expectations things arent that bad
Hell weve seen more games from past gens, this gen, than any other quite simply because the fanbase is alot bigger and theres more profit potential
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
I believe your wrong on alot of fronts
1) There hasnt been a decline, if anything theres been an even further rise. Western rpgs were always around, and always doing well
2) Please look at the big picture. Most japanese companies have actually gotten bigger this gen while alot of western ones are either flopping or going out of business ie THQ. Hell In 2011. 7 out of the top 10 companies based on revenue were japanese.
3) All devs say they are strugglign sometimes, it isnt just japan. Hell bioware has said originality and risk in the west is dead. THQ is drowning, EA has said all bethesda games are exactly the same and lack any sort of vision or originality. It happens
Clanger67 on 14 Feb '12 said:
I take a bit of offense that bethesdas games are all the same that is like saying tolkiens books are all the same or that he based lord of the rings from his experiences in the first world war.If you have a good game world and have built up a mythology that people like what do you do then make tetris,lol.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
I didnt say that. The devs of KOA did. The point being it isnt only japanese devs taking shots, Western companies do it too
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
You are hilarious, calling people out on facts which you say aren't facts and then making up facts of your own.
Ian Frazier was the one slandering Skyrim and bethesda, he's nothing to do with them or EA, he is just trying to make Kingdoms of Amalur sell better as a result, but we all just thought he was a giant douche for doing so, as it is a childish move.
CunningSmile is an accountant and seems to have a lot of knowledge about finance in the game industry, I'd take his word over 'You're wrong' anyday.
Come now, stop saying 'you're wrong' and read to what people are saying - research whether they are right or not, and then provide some proof that you are right rather than misquoting, because you are looking foolish.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
@Bezza89
I have an economics degree and masters in fiannce. I know alot about the finance as well and the game industry. I have alot of friends in the industry
I never made up a single fact. Ian frazier works at a development team run by EA does he not? Does it matter what his motives were? He said it.
Just like when inafune said capcom stinks. What were his motives? He was about to quit
I proved you were wrong about sales, and reputation and everything else
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
Heres a little nugget. I am very very good friends with 1 particular nis america employee.
Sometimes I say japanese rpgs are dying, and we both just laugh at the absurdity of the statement. Hes told me that this gen nis america has grown 5x pretty much on the back of there localization efforts. Hes told me that disgaeas never sold as much. And atelier has never sold as much
I am also friends with someone from nintendo of america. Its obvious but they have done more rpg work this gen in terms of development and publishing than any other gen. And hes told me its been very profitable
comabob on 14 Feb '12 said:
The problem i have with JRPG's is that they are all pretty much the same
Same androgynous characters, same retarded child characters, same terrible voice acting, same monotonous dungeon crawling, same stilted random encounters, same turn based combat, same equippable loot (oh a bracelet! thats new for a JRPG!)
The storylines are always ridiculous and OTT with emo' subplots and whiny dialogue.
On the 360 the JRPG is most definitely on the decline - primary reason IMHO is that too many were released in a short space of time that were of poor quality and interchangeable names like Infinite Undiscovery for eg...
Its bizarre but i tried each and every one of the JRPGS that have been released on 360 - everything from Enchanted Arms through to Lost Odyssey and Tales of VEsperia - and the only 1 i managed to grit my teeth and stomach till the end credits was FF13
AND THAT was only cos i was stuck with no internet connection and no other single player games.
But if you had to ask me now what was FF13 about - all i could tell you was some stupid nonsense about Falci's and Elsi's trying to get back to Pulsai or some shit and Leona Lewis sang the song at the end.
The problems people have with the genre (when i say people i mena the modern majority of gamers/consumers) are the very things that make the genre what it is - androgynous characters, turn based combat, lack of choice/no way of impacting the game world in anyway, - even something as simple as adding an in game Journal to keep track of what your ding, where y our headed and what your objectives are is rare in a JRPG.
The amount o ftimes i started a playthrough on enchanted arms or tales of vesperia and gotten bored - come back to the game a month or so later and theres no way of seeing in a glance where youve been, what your doing or where your up to.
Tales of in particular i distinctly recall being stuck in a dungeon near the start of the game and switching the console off - every time i went back to it over the next few weeks i would still be stuck in the same place - NOT because the enmies were tough but purely cos the awkward map and terrible lack of waypoints to remind me what i was doing.
I started a new playthrough out of frustration with a mates guide - and lo and behold the dungeon i was stuck in was somewhere i wasnt meant to be yet.
A) why allow access to it if you can and will get stuck there without following the path the game wanted you to?
B) would it have been too much to ask tha the developers insert a kinda failsafe that alerts you that you shouldnt be somewhere? like have a nother character from the players party come up on screen and say "What are you doing?! we need to go here!!"
Fr 8 hours i was stuck on that game - once it dawned on me why i was stuck i quit the game out of rage and never played it again.
Dont get me wrong - i dont hate the genre but it hasnt changed since the old Megadrive Phantasy Star games. AND THAT is why is its in decline.
It was a niche genre to begin with tbh
OH AND STEALTH - im friends with Jesus and Santa and they both think your wrong...
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
Yes it does, because he's talking bollocks. You have proved nothing, you just say it, and claim that is proof. Elvis wrote Skyrim, because I have a friend in Norway who told me, he's part of bethesda now. Apparently Elvis wrote the entire thing. Before he died. In a taxi.
Clanger67 on 14 Feb '12 said:
Wow it's getting warm in here,lol.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
@comabob
I apologize but when anyone says any genre is exactly the same I have to laugh
devil survivor, etrian oddessy, ff 13-2, kingdom hearts, ys, inazuma eleven are all not the same.
The original xbox got 0 japanese rpgs, so the fact that the 360 has 1 is a 100 percent increase. Them being in decline is because in japan the 360 failed.
And there have been wonderful ones on the 360 tales of vesperia, blue dragon, eternal sonata, lost oddessy, agarest wars, ect
ff 13 was a fun game I enjoyed it\
And dont say modern majority because it means your speaking out of your ass
TYhe highest selling rpg on any single system is a turn based rpg. So logic broken
up to.
The rest of your statement is just rambling
Do you honestly want to compare the megadrive phantasy star games and then compare them to phantasy star portable 1 and 2 and tell me they havent changed?
Come on dude
"It was a niche genre to begin with tbh"
the first realist thing you said. RPGs are niche
You see that santa bit was a joke. What I said was actual truth.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
IN YOUR OPINION. What I have proved is theres bashing everywhere. So when you said japanese dev said X I can say just like you, hes talking bollocks and dismiss it? I am not dismissing it. Theres real problems in the industry. And it isnt just coming form japan
So your trying to discredit me huh? Go on nisa forums, contact lyner ( hes very friendly) are pretty good friends, hes even invited me out to visit the headquarters.
I enjoyed this article usually you dont see any 360 site talkign rpgs from any region
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
I wasn't referring to your friends I was referring to your posts about how sales aren't declining, or how bethesda employees had slandered skyrim etc. You don't provide links, you just say anything. You could be 100% correct, but no one can know because you haven't suggested you've used data to prove it. That's all I'm saying, in quite a comedic way, you say it's my opinion - prove me wrong, because in accordance with your posts I could be right.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
I have 5 really good friends from the game industry. Really good ones. One from nis america, one from nintendo, and one from atlus, one from xseed, 1 from microsoft
I proved how sales really arent declining.
Sigh, I never said that bethesda employees slandered skyrim you dolt. I said KOA.
What links did you provide?
Oh and what is the highest selling rpg on any single system?
"n particular, the company noted that Tales of Xillia sold more than 760,000 copies,"
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/4024 ... rofits.php
"Sales of The Legend of Heroes: Zero no Kiseki are so strong Falcom is sharing their spoils with shareholders. "
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/09/13/ze ... of-profit/
"Strong performance by Disgaea 4 was the reason for the increased sales forecast, the company said in a statement. Following its February 24 release, the game has seen repeat orders."
Seems ok to me
http://andriasang.com/comuqg/nippon_ichi_disgaea_sales/
comabob on 14 Feb '12 said:
I said they are all the same on the 360 and i stand by that comment. Cos they f**king are!
SO what because the 360 got more than the original xbox than they definitely arent on the decline? You do realise that the 360 has been around now for like 6 years?! and YES over that time the JRPG on the 360 has most defeinitely declined.
YOU even say this as well cos "in japan the 360 failed"
You list some that were on the 360 but correct me if im wrong but do they not all have androgynous characters? annoying voice acting? annoying child characters? turn based combat? Oh WAIT - THEY f**kIN DO!!!
Modern Majority?!? HA - i said it again - it feels good to talk out of your ass as you should know
The highest selling rpg on a system?!?! What you mean Pokemon on the DS?!?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA that doesnt suprise me cos the DS is A) EXTREMELY popular - especially in Japan and B) Pokemon for some bizarre is insanely popular as well - ESPECIALLY in japan
yeh the santa bit was a joke but Jesus doesnt joke - he knows his shit mate and he tells me your full of it
Oh and i like how your linking to rpgs sales figures like anyone gives a damn - this article on THIS site is relating to the 360, not the wii or the ds or some otrher niche crap thats only available on import.
(you do realise this is the UK site dont you? or does being american prohibit you from seeing past your own gaping rectum?)
Clanger67 on 14 Feb '12 said:
The point he was trying to make is that the devs of KOA were employees of bethesda.
Edit~:So why the slander it doesn't taske aPHD to work it out.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
your smarter it seems. From the beginning I said the KOA devs that work for EA
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
@comabob
If you think all rpgs are the same I wont fight that.
You realize the 360 is a big nothing in japan right? The fact that it even got 1 japanese rpg is historical.
blue dragon didnt have androgynous characters,lost oddessy didnt have bad voice acting. And nier didnt have turn based combat.
Exactly. The ds is popular. You get it. In japan the 360 is not popular. Hell even the second highest selling rpg on any single system is japanese.
I am very aware this is a 360 and european site. But just because it is doesnt mean there isnt a world out there
Clanger67 on 14 Feb '12 said:
Yeah the point being they now work for EA and are maybe a little disgruntled at bethesda yet they are making the same kind of a game that they cvall bethesda for who they used to work for and round and round wwweeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
did curt shilling work for bethesda? Did ra salvadore work for bethesda? Or was it only 1 employee?
Clanger67 on 14 Feb '12 said:
Is that the point or has it gone a little bit OFF TOPIC.
comabob on 14 Feb '12 said:
I NEVER ONCE said all RPGS are the same - cos they arent - ALL JRPGS ON THE 360 - ARE
YES Blue Dragon DID have androgynous characters and YES LO DID have terrible voice acting - Nier wasnt a JRPG is combination of everything from Zelda like action/exploration, text adventure and shmup - NOT a JRPG - it was Japanese and had Role playing elements but it was NOT a JRPG.
what the hell are you talking bout? "second highest selling rpg is japanese" !? is it on the 360?
point is - people are pointing out that the JRPG on the 360 is on the decline and you start pointing out games that arent even on the 360 to try and argue that they are not on the decline.
Hence - you are talking from your anus
I never said anything about how popular or unpopular the 360 is in Japan - i dont think anyone has - wtf are you talking about?!?!?
Microsoft acquired the rights to a number of JRPG releases for the first few years of the consoles life to try and secure a strong foothold in Japan - but as the games were most if not all major flops - MIcrosoft changed tactics and refocused on the western audience
thats widely known as a fact. besides my mate the Hideo Kojima told me over skype just a minute ago
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
You said it there, but Ian Frazier isn't a dev from bethesda, that was my point - I had only read bits from the mountain written against forum members, but this stuck out as random nonsense, and I've been complaining about you spouting random nonsense. I didn't need to provide any because I didn't spout any random 'facts' - but here's the interview - http://www.computerandvideogames.com/333680/interviews/kingdoms-of-amalur-skyrim-and-oblivion-are-the-same-game-we-want-to-take-rpgs-in-a-new-direction/
Thank you for finally providing some links, they're a bit old though, but you have now proven you aren't speaking complete bollocks.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
"The problem i have with JRPG's is that they are all pretty much the same "
This is exactly what you said, you did not say 360 in this.
Blue dragon had a very unique character design and not 1 character was androgynous. LO was amazing, Nier was completely an rpg even arguing that is insanity.
No, people are pointing out generalizations for the entire industry. Thats what the article was about. It wasnt just 360 only and dont touch anything else.
Hell you dont even remember what you post. Whose talking out of the anus?
Thats not how it happened dude. They released and published many rpgs which all sold very very well. Hell tales of vesperia broke 100k in the US, 500k in japan which is an amazing feat. But what they found is even by doing that there position in japan hadnt improved, so they stopped.
blue dragon, eternal sonata, tales of vesperia, lost oddessy were all big successes.
I dont know anyone famous at any game company, I just know the hard workers
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
@Bezza89
When I wrote that I was refering to a college in the western rpg industry. You got confused that is my fault.
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
Ken Rolston is the only bethesda person I know about, but he is below this Ian Frazier douchebag. Curt is a random baseball player - basically some idiot with a load of cash. RA is a bestselling author of some sort.
Well, well - at least we understand where we were both coming from now, you're not some douche spouting random shit, and I am not calling you out on it for no reason.
Clanger67 on 14 Feb '12 said:
And i am sorry for putting words in your mouth bezza my bad,it won't happen again.
OXM ETboy on 14 Feb '12 said:
I want to take part in this conversation but I'm running several paragraphs behind.
Why can't we all just get along, etc.
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
I'm already doing kum-by-yah. Or however you type that.
comabob on 14 Feb '12 said:
Its a 360 site - is it really necessary to state what platform im talking about when posting on here?!? AND AGAIN - I never said ALL RPGS are the same - ALL JRPGS are.
AGAIN i didnt say Nier wasnt an RPG - i said it wasnt a JRPG - cos its not. It molds several gamestyles together to make a cohesive whole. Something that no JRPG has even ATTEMPTED to do this gen. AND THAT ALONE sets it a cut and above most other JRPGS.
You lsit those games but what about Enchanted Arms? Infinite Undiscovery? The Last Remnant? Magna Carta? Were they hits as well?
Oh no they werent were they?! And as most of them have been released AFTER the ones youve mentioned and none of them were successful - doesnt that alone prove the point that JRPGS on the 360 are most definitely on the decline?!?
What do you mean talking out of THE anus?!? We dont share the same anus u chowderhead - you speak out of yours and i speak into my wifes
ETboy - arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics - etc etc
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
im cool
STE MO on 14 Feb '12 said:
This is great. I'm enjoying this
CunningSmile on 14 Feb '12 said:
I know, I'm having trouble clicking refresh quickly enough to read each new post.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
@comabob
seems like we arent going to agree on this
All of them were successful. And if you were a company would you say no to more money? I didnt think so
comabob on 14 Feb '12 said:
What do you mean all of them?!?
If a game doesnt make back what it costs to make that by definition makes it a flop. Enchanted Arms, Infinite Undiscovery, Last Remnant - even Nier (which i actually enjoyed) - were flops.
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
... on a frog on a log that I found in the hole in the bottom of the sea... There's a fleck...
comabob on 14 Feb '12 said:
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
all 3 made profit dude
Maverick_McCool on 14 Feb '12 said:
I blame Lymle for the decline of the JRPG is that 'kay with you stealthie?
I did have a longer counter argument , but by the time I manage to type it all in I'll be about 5 pages behind and we'll all be back to discussing gertrude again.
I'm gonna single this statement out as an outright lie though on the basis that you've spent the last 4 pages defending them , and on the grounds that no one talks like that in real life.
Here's a revised top 10 irrefutable reasons why the JRPG is in decline.
1: Hope (Just for you Sid)
2: Vanille
3: Lylmle
4: Cooke and Mack
5: Palom and Porum
6: Peco (An onion , seriously!)
7: The whole cast of Eternal Sonata
8: Lylme (damn I hate that bitch)
9: Vanille (and her)
10: Hope (and Sid hates this whiny little goit enough for him to earn 2 entries)
Again , I rest my case.
"My name's Commander Sheppard , and this is my favourite list on the Citadal."
comabob on 14 Feb '12 said:
typing "jrpgs on 360 flop" into google is fascinating without even looking at the actual lifetime sales
Enchanted Arms was a flop even in japan - http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=en ... esults=200
Infinite Undiscovery http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=in ... esults=200
Last Remnant http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=la ... esults=200
Nier http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=ni ... esults=200
smashing records left and right i see!!
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
Yes comabob, I am now off in another tangent singing folk songs.
Clanger67 on 14 Feb '12 said:
Nobody is biting at the mention of gertrude,err oooppppsss,lol.
comabob on 14 Feb '12 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDR9Xh0GPeQ
SidTheSloth on 14 Feb '12 said:
http://s14.postimage.org/q0c5bfw81/Target_Acquired.jpg
If any dev wants to follow up on my above game suggestion i'll gladly give you the money for my day 1 purchase right now!!
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
Ha I look too much like that double bass player... or is it just a bass? I saw gertrude and didn't think that would sit well with the whole speaking absolute nonsense thing.
comabob on 14 Feb '12 said:
LOL - thats Harry Shearer of Simpsons fame!!
u seriously look like that?!?!
msbhvn on 14 Feb '12 said:
Aw, I've been asleep all day and missed poking fun at the idiot.
My favourite part was where he said 760,000 copies was the best selling RPG on a single system. You don't even get a reprint for that. Now where did I put that list of BioWare sales figures? ME2, 2,000,000 in one week seems to come to mind, that came out on two systems initially so worst case scenario would be 1,000,000 each. Oh and what about World of Warcraft?
EDIT: For the record, I like classic JRPGs. Secret of Mana is one of my favourite games ever and I must buy it on the Wii Virtual Console. I recently bought Chrono Trigger to play on my 3DS. The JRPGs on 360 however have been universally poor. Blue Dragon needs to be buried with a stake through it, as it has absolutely no redeeming qualities. Lost Odyssey was better, until you meet the two annoying kids and realise you still have to go through another two discs.
Bezza89 on 14 Feb '12 said:
In a blurry way, I know what harry shearer looks like though, and no, I'm more like my avatar on the left, without the hat, or the cool, and only a long five oclock shadow, as opposed to a full beard.
Alaric14 on 14 Feb '12 said:
I'm feeling very in touch with that emotion right now. I'm scrolling through this mess trying to find an opening and there are possibly tears welling up in my eyes. Good grief, let's just all go out for a few beers. Stealth can bring his friends along and we can all have a good chin-wag, yes?
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
Are you refering to me?
because pokemon has sold 15+ million units ( black and white) on the ds.
But then again I always go back to this
The best selling game this gen is wii fit.
Will anyone make the arguement its the best game based on sales?
Compared to the original xbox which was nothing, the 360 has been a japanese rpg haven
comabob on 14 Feb '12 said:
At this point you are clearly trolling.
Crocodile3 on 14 Feb '12 said:
In my opinion the JRPG is dead. I am a long time gamer and absolutely loved final fantasy 7&8. I didn't have a PS2 so didn't play any other FF title until 13. In my opinion this is rock bottom for the series. Utterly boring/incomprehensible story line, unlikable characters and linear environments. I slogged through it hoping it would get better and it just didn't. Maybe gaming has moved on, maybe I have moved on - either way I doubt I will play another FF or JRPG.
Although if Shenmue III ever comes out, I might play that.
stealth on 14 Feb '12 said:
trolling isnt having a different opinion and then debating it.
And in my opinion, your opinion is ridiculous.
Guess what, ff 13 was my least favorite main game but I still liked it. Great characters, a good story line, what was lacking was side quests and towns.
And even so Ive had crisis core, ff type zero, tactics advance 2, warriors of light, revant wings, and more to keep me company
I dont think they want you playing them
shenmue isnt an rpg
michaelhill2110 on 16 Feb '12 said:
as you havnt played 12 ill forgive you for slating 13 caus after 12, 13 was a gift from god.
anyway... the reason the jrpg is sliping are all the reasons stated above, the grinding, the characters etc. what this gen needs is a game that has all the beautifull story and amazing graphics, keeps all the things jrpg'ers love yet remove all the dull bits....
i know a game like this....
it was out on the ps1 and it was relesed the same time as ff8 so it didnt get good sales and as a result is quite rare and very unheard of.....
Legend of Legaia. (legaia 2 came out on the ps2 was shit so dont bother with that) this game was not a grind as the dungons were set so you alwase leveled up enough to beat the boss at the end. the story was beautifull. and it had a turn based battle system that has NEVER been even remotely retried. the characters are briliant (if you ignore the fact they act 5 years older than they are). i think this is the opitomy of the jrpg and would convert many.
CunningSmile on 16 Feb '12 said:
Thanks for the recommend. Fingers crossed for an HD rerelease as I no longer have my PS1 or " even if I could find it.
michaelhill2110 on 16 Feb '12 said:
if you cant play it at least look for videos of the battle mechanics, i think this system could realy revamp turn based combat... i think the only reason it hasnt so far is it hasnt had the publicity.
OXM ETboy on 16 Feb '12 said:
/pokes head round door cautiously
I loved FFXII. I also hated it. The battle system was great, the Gambit system was great once you unlocked everything, and Ivalice is my favourite Final Fantasy setting - solider, more real than any other Final Fantasy world. I liked the plot too, though it was a little too disjointed and vignette-driven. But good lord, the license system. It's execrable.
michaelhill2110 on 16 Feb '12 said:
final fantisy 12 level up system in a nut shell:
yay ive leveled up! oooh ive unlocked thundara... wait... what you mean i cant use it.... i have to buy it
????!!!!
or
ooohhhh a better weapon! *shels out thousands of gill to buy it* what? what you mean i cant use it?! i have to level up first
???!!!
OXM ETboy on 16 Feb '12 said:
Yeah, that's about the size of it. Literally ruined the game for me.
michaelhill2110 on 16 Feb '12 said:
anyway back to my earleyer point the genre needs a revamp... somthing to change the way the game is played e.g. the battle system i mentiond, or more versitile character creation even if that character has a set path(ish). RPGs be they japanese or otherwise are genesis and there are things that havn't changed since even befour thay had graphics and were just words on the screen. now the grapics are one of the main selling points. if lost odysey hadnt had great graphics i wouldnt play it. they seem to me to be the only ones who push the grapics capebilies of the consoles to the limit.
SidTheSloth on 16 Feb '12 said:
Reads: "Final Fantasy XII Licenses"
Has sudden Drell-like flashback...
Shudders... Shakes with anger... Smashes PS3 controller as it resembles that of a PS2... And caaaaalm...
Let us never talk of this again, stupid game breaking feature >mutter mutter grumble<
Final Fantasy XII licenses are added to 'the list' for me along with:
Hope
)
Vanille
Galbadia Prison (FF8)
Materia Keeper (FF7 - F*cking Trine spell!!)
GI Natak (FF7 - Aaaages to beat him, i learned the valuable lesson about undead enemies and phoenix downs later
Malboro (Git git git git GIT!! - any version except 7 when you have the ribbon!!)
Skull Eaters (FF5 - Deadly and looked like a fat grey squirrel)
Tonberries (kind of a love/hate)
Those goddam gargoyles (FF7 in the crater with death spell!)
Intanigar (Spelling? FF6 i think? The invisible one anyway with a love for meteors - and a hatred for the stop/slow spells it turns out!)
Yuffie stealing your materia
Those electric bird things after Yuffie has stolen said materia
The innocent looking little red balls of death when you go to the second world/realm in FFIX?! (Gaia? or Terra?). They're in some of the others but seem especially lethal in 9!
W-summon knights of the round (there's a mistake you learn quickly from!)
Eiko (FF9)
Yuna (FF10)
Shiva/Ifrit (Because they always look cool and are always shit damage wise)
Feel free to add your own!
michaelhill2110 on 16 Feb '12 said:
you forgot dark aeons from 10... and yojimbo for being a greedy missbehaving twat we only put up with caus he could kill dark aeons in 1 hit
by the way sorry for being big headed but i think my sumup of the ff12 license system was prity nail on the head
SidTheSloth on 16 Feb '12 said:
I don't remember 10 very well, probably my least favourite of the lot so can't remember as much from it - although i liked blitzball! Dark Aeons were rock as i recall so they can go on the list - but a welcome challenge they were nonetheless?
It was, hence my sudden and frankly miserable recollection. So many good things in 12 and they balls it all up with that!
SidTheSloth on 16 Feb '12 said:
HA! I missed Sephiroth's outrageous summon spell (supernova?) off the list! Made Knights of the round seem quick!!
michaelhill2110 on 16 Feb '12 said:
i supose they gave you a reason to compleet the sphear grid... and penance (the final boss you can get after defeating the other dark aeons) is the moast badass looking beast ive ever seen.... and is next to indestructable
and yes... supernova... LONGEST BATTLE VISUAL SEQUENCE EVER!!
stealth on 17 Feb '12 said:
ff 12 was amazing
Maverick_McCool on 17 Feb '12 said:
I can't in all good conscience add the Dark Aeons to the list , as nigh on impossible hidden bosses are a part of nearly all FF games and most JRPGs come to that. Also , as they are mostly optional you can usually avoid them altogether , where as something like the Licence board , or Lymle ( damn that bitch ) are unavoidable , I'm also reluctant to add specific enemies as all games have beasties we'd like to avoid , I'll give you Malboro's though , for the simple fact that Bad Breath is virtually useless when you try and use it , but can cripple your team if you are hit with it.
I'm also going to alter the title from "Reasons JRPG's are in decline" so I can fit more of Sid's excellent suggestions in. So here we have.
The ongoing list of characters and gameplay mechanics that will cripple the JRPG genre if they aren't bloody careful.
Before they hate begins I have been a big fan of JRPG's in the past , as has/is sir Sid of Sloth but enough is enough. Some of these are a personal gripe , but some are a real problem.
In no particular order.
1:Lymle
2:Hope
3:Vanille
4:Yuffie ( good shout Sid , even if she hadn't stole your materia , she'd still make the list.)
5:The Licence board
6:Eiko ( again to Sid , can't believe I forgot her.)
7:Marlboro's ( Or any Bad Breath type attack.)
8:Summons that look awesome but are ultimately useless.
9:FFX-2 (all of it)
10:Taking out cool little mini games and side quests and replacing them with :
11:A 20 hr long , random battle filled corridor.
12:Unskippable cut scenes.
13:Upping the difficulty by upping the random battle count rather than the enemy difficulty.
14:Cooke and Mack
15:In fact all the children you end up having to babysit.
That's it for now , as Sid said , feel free to add , and while we are at it maybe we can come up with a list of things we still love about the genre ( just don't suggest Lymle.)
michaelhill2110 on 17 Feb '12 said:
FF-X-2 had a nipple slip and for that reason alone should be spaired the hate list
schwepterbrowser on 17 Feb '12 said:
JRPGs have never mattered to me, I never have and probably never will play one. They just aren't my cup of tea.
I don't like turn based combat (I realise some are real-time), the characters... anything about them in short. I do wish I could muster some interest in the genre - same story with sports and racing games; I can appreciate them and would like to enjoy them, but I just don't.
SidTheSloth on 18 Feb '12 said:
13:Upping the difficulty by upping the random battle count rather than the enemy difficulty.
This is annoying, but then so were the over the top spikes in difficulty in XIII. I just remember getting through one bit and finding those green fish/lizard things who obliterated me in seconds...! Not cool and frankly cheap...!
I'd add more but time is short for now!
michaelhill2110 on 19 Feb '12 said:
ahhh the tonberry.... bane of menney
SidTheSloth on 19 Feb '12 said:
Nope nope, not the tonberry on XIII! It was the green fish things (ceretoraptors or something?) they attacked in big mob groups. On their own not so bad, but hard hitting, fast and always in groups of 5-7
michaelhill2110 on 19 Feb '12 said:
ahhhh!!! snow/fang/lightning in cerberus, with a sneek attack if posible... if you try to take them out 1 at a time you just get overwhelmed
SidTheSloth on 2 Mar '12 said:
Despite having an endless list of 360 games i need/want to play, i hold this thread responsible for me recently downloading FF 6, 7, 8 & 9 and being unable to stop playing/thinking about 9 (IX for the non-roman numerically challenged). Despite being grossly underrated by so many i would argue it's just as good as 7 & 8. The cutscenes in particular, which blew me away back in the day, are still spectacular. I'm really looking forward to watching a certain couple of Eidolons fight again in all their cgi glory!
Freya still sucks though, and whilst Quina is ranked close to Jar-Jar Binks on my list of favourite characters (as in bottom of the list), Eiko is still scarily weird (not that im that far yet but i digress!)
OXM ETboy on 2 Mar '12 said:
Steiner and Vivi are the best things about 9
"MASTER VIVI! THE PRINCESS AND I ARE ROOTING FOR YOU!"
SidTheSloth on 3 Mar '12 said:
You mean Rusty - right?
I wouldn't have expected you to champion Vivi either Ed, far too obvious a choice, he's the Garrus character for me, annoys me because everyone else loves him!
I prefer the much maligned Zidane if i'm honest, i loved Cloud & Squall but 'the big Z' was something of a welcome departure from the brooding gits, at least for one game (even if he wasn't quite as badass!).
Zorn & Thorn also deserve a mention i reckon, i'd forgotten about them entirely - but then i realised it's now eleven years since it was released so it's hardly a surprise it's not fresh in the memory
Square really really need to go back to these titles for inspiration - and get Hironobu and especially Nobuo back, the battle tune is ferociously good!
(Checks to make sure the Last Story is still in Amazon wishlist)