The Hot Topic: do we need a new Xbox?

My biggest concern to all of this is whether the 360's Gamerscore will carry over onto the 720, or will Xbox do away with Gamerscore completely when the 720 gets it's release?

i think it is about time for a new console, this generation has lasted longer than any other generation so far...could you imagine the next mass effect on a new console!!??

I am quite happy with what i have got as well.Ok you get the odd framerate issue now but i have seen some amazing scenery etc.,in fallout,skyrim,mass effect,more than i would have thought possible when i was a kid.Also obviously with a console developers know the limitations of their hardware unlike the pc were something gets released and only ten people can play it properly or have to spend more and more money on hardware.

My biggest concern to all of this is whether the 360's Gamerscore will carry over onto the 720, or will Xbox do away with Gamerscore completely when the 720 gets it's release?

That's your biggest concern?!

My biggest concern to all of this is whether the 360's Gamerscore will carry over onto the 720, or will Xbox do away with Gamerscore completely when the 720 gets it's release?

That's your biggest concern?!

Maybe not my biggest concern, but still it's something I'm bothered about.

To be honest I can see both sides to this argument and could argue for both equally. I am more than happy with my xbox and the quality of the majority of games on it.

However a new xbox (720 or whatever they decide to call it) would also be welcome. It would need to be a blu-ray based and obviously that would hold more information but if games are that more complex graphically etc I don't think they would be that much bigger or better. Look at the PS3 that also uses a blu-ray player...

AI could be improved obviously as well as more dialogue, frame rate but the new xbox would be about as good as top end PC games machines are NOW. From what I hear (I know its still rumour) the chipset is not even based on the best available NOW. So the xbox 720 is only going to be as good as top PC's are now and as they are improving monthly (it seems) they are still going to be behind (if you want the BEST available).

Now all of this is immaterial really - are games on the 360 that bad at the moment. Do you really think we have reached the pinnacle of the 360's capabilities? I think not - the reason I say this is look at the games that came out last year (Gears 3, Forza 4 etc.) they were much better than their predecessors graphically even when you thought they couldn't improve. Games like Mass Effect 3 due to be released this year looks like it will be graphically superior to previous games (whether it is bigger as well has yet to be seen). The 360 still hasn't had its day yet and certainly developers seem to be getting more and more out of it.

I think though it is time to start thinking about the successor and what they want it to do. I think they do need to increase the RAM monumentally and develop a decent chip set too but this takes time. Maybe by the end of 2013 would be a good time for release as I feel the xbox 360 has a lot more to offer us. But if that is the case then it is time to start on its development (AND IT MUST PLAY 2nd HAND GAMES and BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY!!)

I'm always hypocritical when it comes to next gen stuff, I'd love one as Log does, I want better and shiny and faster and smoother... but at the same time it takes a while for the great games to be made - we could all have better looking games but would there be as many with additional costs for smaller studios to produce them, and would they play better. I want stupidly intelligent AI that are a joy to play against (see Halo: Elites), I want destruction in every game and stories interwoven into the designs and wrote by the greatest authors and battlefield with 64 players.

...I'd bet all we'd get was prettier though. (See the PC snobs article too).

AI could be improved obviously as well as more dialogue, frame rate but the new xbox would be about as good as top end PC games machines are NOW. From what I hear (I know its still rumour) the chipset is not even based on the best available NOW. So the xbox 720 is only going to be as good as top PC's are now and as they are improving monthly (it seems) they are still going to be behind (if you want the BEST available).

But think about what PCs do - they have to run operating systems at the same time and god knows what, 360 runs a 512mb ram, imagine what 4GB rumoured could do. There's also a limit to graphics - we've all got 1080p as the highest right? Unless that goes higher (what for, it's a perfect size in my view) the graphics chips that reach that target at 60fps would be acceptable.

As I see it, 360 is as good as top PCs were 8 years ago (2004 would be when the chip was decided? a guess) and it has games that look like Jesus.

Judging by the las dash update for 360 - im concerned for what the 720 will be like. With all he focus on Kinect i fully expect the next consoles launch lineup to look similar o the wii lineup when hat launched.

IE - youll have motion control added sequels of MS games like Forza, Gears, Halo and Fable (thats IT isnt it?)and tons of shitty shovelware.

SOME games will be Backwards Compatible but not all - AND only if you pay for the premium version of the 720.
Gamerscore will carry over - BUT you will be forced to pay something like 6.99 to transfer/update your gamertag as well.

Im being overly cynical of course but i would honestly no be surprised if i was right.

Dare say that even when they do announce the 720 - i will be going for a PS4 next gen.
Sony's PS4 will probably have the same awkward functionality of the PS3 now - bu you can guarantee Sony will have a stack of original content and new IPs for heir next gen console. Much like they do now.

But think about what PCs do - they have to run operating systems at the same time and god knows what, 360 runs a 512mb ram, imagine what 4GB rumoured could do. There's also a limit to graphics - we've all got 1080p as the highest right? Unless that goes higher (what for, it's a perfect size in my view) the graphics chips that reach that target at 60fps would be acceptable.

As I see it, 360 is as good as top PCs were 8 years ago (2004 would be when the chip was decided? a guess) and it has games that look like Jesus.

Yeah true but do games look that bad now! I am not saying I don't want a new xbox but feel there is still life in this one - I also said that they do need to start developing it and upgrade the RAM (4gb Min) but don't expect it til 2013.

If the new one were released now with the rumoured graphics card it would be about 3 years behind what the top end PCs (with single cards) can do. The 6670 is roughly equivalent (in raw horsepower) to the 4870, the top graphics card from ATi in 2009. Top end graphics cards at the moment are probably about 2-3 times more powerful than the 4870. By the time the 720 is released there will have been one or two more product cycles adding another 15-20% each cycle.

Top PCs at the moment can also have 4 of these cards in parallel...

If you don't think new consoles are needed then you are frankly a fool, or someone that does not want progress.

I take a quote from the article:

I think we've reached a point where games aren't really limited by technology so much as they are by the amount of time and personpower it takes to create the content.

You Sir, are a fool. Games really aren't limited by technology? Really? Please make a comparison of BF3 between consoles and PCs.

PC: 64 players, graphics up to ultra, anti aliasing, renders at whatever resolution you want (provided your computer can handle it)
Consoles: 24 players limited, graphics capped to low (there is then medium, high, ultra), rendered at 1280*704 (NOT EVEN HD)

You really think that DICE just said "Screw it, I can't be bothered to eke more than twice the player numbers out of this consoles and God knows how many multiples of graphics quality". No, they were limited by the 8 year old technology. Of course they were.

EDIT: I can't get over how idiotic that statement is, I really can't, this is the only appropriate response I can think of:

http://stickerish.com/wp-content/themes/mio/sp-framework/timthumb/timthumb.php?src=http://stickerish.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/JackiechanBlackSS.png&h=120&w=200&zc=2&q=100&a=c

EDIT2: I'd also like to point out the vast majority of console games don't render at 1080p, most render at 720p at best and are upscaled, some not even that. Black ops? 1040*608. About 30% of full 1080p.

EDIT3: I've come up with a statement about as ridiculous as the one I quoted:

"I think humans are not limited in how fast they can run by their physiology, but by the amount they train".

Then proceeding to use as evidence the fact that the top runners now are faster than they were 10 years ago...

The question was 'Do we NEED a new xbox?'

And I maintain that we do not necessarily NEED it now - I think it needs developing NOW though...

I am not entirely happy with the chip set that has been rumoured for the very reasons that you have mentioned and would have hoped for it to be based on the next generation of chip sets... RAM also needs to be upped at least to 4gb too.

I still think there is life left in the current xbox (fortunately) whilst they develop the new one. Graphics etc are still impressing me regardless and they are considerably better (in most cases) than when the console was released. The upcoming games are not disappointing me either.

BF3 maybe could have done with up to 64 players (because of the map sizes) and a better frame rate on consoles but they are still quite impressive none the less (I play on a 46" 1080p Samsung LCD TV with HDMi connection) and although not as impressive as PC's running 'ultra' graphics the gameplay on the majority of games (not just BF3) are not affected. To me Game play is more important than flashy graphics although they can enhance the game too.

Maybe a game like CoD would benefit from a new console in terms of graphics but the 60fps is the most important aspect for a face paced game. Broadband too would need to be greatly improved across the country. Where I live (out in the sticks) we cannot get top end broadband connection so this would greatly impact on the game play and I am certain that LAG would be a major problem.

A new console is not necessarily needed now but it does need to be developed NOW as the current ones are reaching the end of their lives. To me though I do not think they are struggling yet. Games are looking so much better than they ever have (look at Uncharted 3 the best looking game on any console imo). As I said previously games like Forza 4 look awesome too. A new console wouldn't necessarily make it look better but could had weather effects and maybe night racing but certainly wouldn't make it any more playable. Also all the extra graphics, dialogues, AI etc would take up more disc space so don't see that games would necessarily be bigger either but may look better.

Ah sorry, it appears I grabbed the wrong end if the stick and bit down a bit too hard... I missed the distinction between now and developing now, I apologise.

I mainly agree with the rest of your post, graphics are very nice but not necessary. However I do disagree when you say gameplay is not affected. I think that having 2.5 times fewer people in a game greatly affects gameplay. I think that fewer than 32 people is underpopulated on a conquesut (not to mention conqest large) server. I can't imagine how sparse 24 must be. There are also fewer vehicles etc. to fill an air force (2 jets, attack helI, transport) would take 3/4 of the team!

Edit: graphics would also immediately looYk better, just imagine bumping a game ups' graphics notch. That's textures, lighting, particlEd etc.

Please excuse typos, shortness etc. typing on a phone is hard...

A next gen console? No we don't need one. It'll be back to square one, fork out an extortionate amount for the console itself - which will have to be upgraded/fixed almost immediately as people note/find glitches at the customers cost.
The we have the games which will probably retail at 50 quid a pop to cover costs, all this just so a bush which was made with 3 million pixels, now is made with 6 million?

Can't say it's really worth it.

Ah sorry, it appears I grabbed the wrong end if the stick and bit down a bit too hard... I missed the distinction between now and developing now, I apologise.

I mainly agree with the rest of your post, graphics are very nice but not necessary. However I do disagree when you say gameplay is not affected. I think that having 2.5 times fewer people in a game greatly affects gameplay. I think that fewer than 32 people is underpopulated on a conquesut (not to mention conqest large) server. I can't imagine how sparse 24 must be. There are also fewer vehicles etc. to fill an air force (2 jets, attack helI, transport) would take 3/4 of the team!

Edit: graphics would also immediately looYk better, just imagine bumping a game ups' graphics notch. That's textures, lighting, particlEd etc.

Please excuse typos, shortness etc. typing on a phone is hard...

Game play maybe affected on the multi-player part of BF3 but how many single player games are actually affected? Also it is only a problem because of the size of the maps in BF3. If they were smaller then these issues would not have been so noticeable. I don't see it being an issue in a lot of other multi-player games at the moment and 64 people on a lot of other games would be too many. Too me it highlights the fact that BF3 was really designed for the PC and has not translated so well to the console. 1 part of a game has shown the limitations maybe of the current generation but working within those limitations and with well designed levels, maps etc this can be overcome without ruining the experience and playability.

All the other benefits, textures, lighting etc are purely cosmetic and although would be nice are not essential. Now don't get me wrong I would like to see these things in the next console but also think that there is still life left in the consoles we have. I don't think they are quite at the end of their lives yet but development probably does need to begin now before they reach that end so that it is in place to take over.

The upcoming games are certainly looking very good and can't wait to play them - I am sure that they will offer a great experience too.

I actually think the question is wrong. Do we need a new Xbox, No. Would it be nice to have a new xbox, of course. I still play quite a lot of the older games on xbox 360, xbox, ps2, gamecube, N64, SNES, the games that are well put together on these machines stand the test of time regardless of hardware. You just need to look at how many HD "Remakes" have been made and on their way, God of War, Metal Gear, ICO, Splinter Cell, Daytona, Crazy Taxi, the list goes on. So no I don't think we need a new xbox, but it would be nice.

Nope.....Games are still pushing the limit of the 360 plus Kinect is still finding its feet.......Although its business and Microsoft love Money :-S

Yes we do need a new console and no we don't need a new console. Does that make sense I don't know. In some respect we need a new console, but would the games be that much better then what they are now? Visually the jump would be pretty big and the scale of games could be massive, but would we be cutting off our nose despite our face? Look how long it's taken for developers to get the most out of this generation, um they haven't yet. Games are still getting better and better, but imagine how good they will look in a few years, when designers have had a chance to play around with the next gen consoles.

I'm starting to talk myself round to it now. Oh to he'll with it just give us some info on a new console/consoles whoever is going to make one. We need it now.

No your right the human race shouldn't advance in technology. In fact I think we should go back to talking in grunts and chasing mammoths with big sticks.

My biggest concern to all of this is whether the 360's Gamerscore will carry over onto the 720, or will Xbox do away with Gamerscore completely when the 720 gets it's release?

yes i'm sure it will, as it'll no doubt still run xbox live or an updated version

Game play maybe affected on the multi-player part of BF3 but how many single player games are actually affected? Also it is only a problem because of the size of the maps in BF3. If they were smaller then these issues would not have been so noticeable. I don't see it being an issue in a lot of other multi-player games at the moment and 64 people on a lot of other games would be too many. Too me it highlights the fact that BF3 was really designed for the PC and has not translated so well to the console. 1 part of a game has shown the limitations maybe of the current generation but working within those limitations and with well designed levels, maps etc this can be overcome without ruining the experience and playability.

I'd say every single player game has gameplay affected in some way. Loading screen and corridor games will be due to people wanting lots of shinies and good gameplay. An example here is Portal 2, the engine produces really nice graphics across all platforms by the flip-side is loading screens constantly. I get the feeling - unfortunately - that on a new console devs would just keep the same map sizes and up the shinies (after all there would be an outcry if the graphics didn't make a huge leap).

Oh and you're using a really perverse kind of logic about BF3 there that doesn't quite hold:

"If the maps were smaller then these issues wouldn't be so noticeable"
=>"If the maps were smaller gameplay would not be so affected"
=>"If we limited gameplay by making maps smaller gameplay would not be so affected"

I'd say every single player game has gameplay affected in some way. Loading screen and corridor games will be due to people wanting lots of shinies and good gameplay. An example here is Portal 2, the engine produces really nice graphics across all platforms by the flip-side is loading screens constantly. I get the feeling - unfortunately - that on a new console devs would just keep the same map sizes and up the shinies (after all there would be an outcry if the graphics didn't make a huge leap).

Oh and you're using a really perverse kind of logic about BF3 there that doesn't quite hold:

"If the maps were smaller then these issues wouldn't be so noticeable"
=>"If the maps were smaller gameplay would not be so affected"
=>"If we limited gameplay by making maps smaller gameplay would not be so affected"

None of those things actually affect gameplay!!! Loading screens might be an annoyance but doesn't affect how the game plays. I am sure you will still get loading screens on the next console too! Incidently some single player games on this generation have no loading screens at all - look at uncharted 3 - no loading screens and the best looking game on any console

If the maps were a better size and more suited to the number of players then gameplay would be improved so gameplay would be affected but enhanced as it would feel more balanced. Your criticism said that the maps are more suited to 64 players and with more vehicles but the number of players and vehicles available on console at the moment would be better suited to smaller maps therefore improving the experience as it would be a lot more balanced. A new console would be able to redress that balance maybe but also reducing the map size would do the same - Neither affect the way the game plays! (well you might get a better frame rate too though) but that as I said was just 1 game and still goes to prove it was designed predominantly for the PC market. A new console may have the potential to make these differences (more players and bigger maps) but unless the experience is balanced it will still not be any more playable.

"If the maps were smaller then these issues wouldn't be so noticeable"
=>"If the maps were smaller THESE ISSUES would not be NOTICEABLE and Gameplay would not suffer"
=>"If we make maps smaller and more balanced for the number of players available then overall gameplay would not be so affected and maybe enhanced because it would feel more balanced"

Does that make more sense. You wouldn't want 64 players on CoD maps - there isn't the room and it would feel very unbalanced!! Even CoD knows not to use the small maps on Ground War modes (9v9) as it would be too claustrophobic. Personally I don't know that I would like to play a multi-player game with THAT many people regardlessly but can see how 20 per team would instantly improve BF3's Maps

I can't comment on Portal as it is not my type of game but I am sure the game plays equally as well on PC as it does on Console otherwise it wouldn't receive the critical acclaim it has. You may get better or no loading screens on the PC version but it doesn't play any differently!

We don't "need" an XBOX at all if we're going to be pedantic but that's not really the point.

IMO yes we do need a new XBOX - the argument for development time is irrelevant - most of the "assets" that are produced for a game are done for PC anyway and have to have a lot higher res/anti-aliasing/frame rate/large display/HD etc etc So, at the very least a new console should handle higher res/smoother frame rates, more MP players, larger maps etc - basically - let's just get to PC scale as it is now - that will last us another 5 years or so at least.

As for improvements in AI etc - well, once again, if there are AI "engines" that already exist but they just need more CPU/RAM to run then again, should not call for more development time.

Reduce loading times on Skyrim would be nice too! This, for me, is a new console should be about - just improving what we have now NOT changing development tools so that development costs go up.

However, there is one change that is a MUST for me - make the bloody xbox quieter! I have the new version, games installed on disc and it still sounds way too loud. Don't get me wrong - it's a lot better than the old cream/beige ones. But if they want to push the xbox as a media centre they need to address 2 issues:
1) It's too bloody noisy even playing a video - when it gets turned off in our living room everyone sighs in relief
2) Make it iTunes compatible for streaming content - media centre is sh***te on Windows. They need to look at say the Apple TV interface to see how media should be streamed.

In fact I think we should go back to talking in grunts and chasing mammoths with big sticks.

You've obviously never been to a night club in Southampton. The guys already have gone back to this.

IMO nobody NEEDS a new console - it's a 'nice to have'. My trusty 360 wont suddenly be crap just because something better is released. Personally I think the graphic content on many of the latest games is very good. YES I know a 'next-gen' console would be better - but so what. If the games are still entertaining - isn't that the point?

My 12 yr old Honda is without doubt technically inferior to about a million newer car models - but I don't NEED to change it. Obviously if money were no object, I would - likewise I'd have a new xbox every time one came out, and a new TV, etc etc.

It's good that MS are looking at an updated console for release in the next year or two, but my point still stands. You don't NEED one you would LIKE one (or not).

EDIT: Lastly, if the new console is not backward compatible, it will be a major mistake.

The public wants what the public gets. It makes no difference whether we want one or not (of course we do, something sexy and shiny please). The mighty Microsoft has decided and that's that. Ten times better or one gazzilion times better it makes no difference. We will be getting a new toy and we'll be made to feel thankful. A few optional extras please and in no particular order.
1. A sarnie toaster on one side.
2. A fridge on the other.
3. A chemical toilet within staggering distance.
I'd be 'appy as a pig in wotsit then!

My biggest concern to all of this is whether the 360's Gamerscore will carry over onto the 720, or will Xbox do away with Gamerscore completely when the 720 gets it's release?

Deleting everybody's profile would be commercial suicide. Never happen. By leaving it as-is, Microsoft ensures that score-addled fools such as myself are compelled to upgrade - I wouldn't be surprised if there's some extra layer to it just for 720 users, though.

I kind of subscribe to the 'not yet, but get on with it and give it to us in a year or two' train of thought.

One thing im not looking forward to is how over-hyped and frankly ridiculous the release will be now the world has seemingly gone tech crazy. There's going to be morons queuing for weeks overnight to be the first to buy the new console so they can play the inevitable (& terrible) FIFA launch title and token resurrected franchise update that will be crap. I like my shiny gadgets as much as the next guy but i see launches for iphones/3ds etc on TV and weep at the stupidity of the human race. Hopefully they'll make enough to satisfy demand, but obviously with my cynical side on full display right now i'd suspect otherwise, keep demand high, keep the price high...

The other thing i'd absolutely love them to do (and they don't need to wait for the next console for this) is i'd willingly pay extra for xbox live if they got rid of all these stupid logins for every games company and their own respective systems (battlelog, waypoint, uplay, origin, all the rest i can't think of right now). I don't get why to play their game online they need my e-mail address or any of my personal details at all, microsoft have them already so if they have issue with me they should report through them - find it completely unnecessary and frankly irritating.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head. I couldn't care less about graphics and resolution. They will mean absolutely nothing if all that is released is the same stuff over and over again.
I want new games, new styles of gameplay, new genres and new ways to tell a story!

Do we need a new XBox? Hell no. The console still has plenty of life in it yet, and with the new dash, Kinect and apps the machine is only really hitting it's stride. Besides I have so many wonderful games queued up to play on my shiny black box I don't need one - Bioshocks 1 and 2, the Mass Effect and Gears trilogies, Halo Reach, Borderlands, too many COD titles, GTA 4, Red Dead Redemption, Oblivion, then I need to get Skyrim, Halo Anniversary, MW3, Battlefield 3... And look what's out this year - new SSX (for my Xbox widow), Syndicate, Dishonored, Halo 4... Shall I stop now?